Evan Meyer

Civility amongst Crisis: Shola Richards on the LA Fires, Intellectual Humility, Cognitive Bias

Recorded January 13, 2025

Podcast Summary and Highlights 

Navigating Civility: A Deep Dive with Shola Richards Join me and special guest Shola Richards as we discuss the importance of civility in today’s world. Shola shares insights from his latest book, ‘Civil Unity,’ and reflect on its relevance to relationships, workplace environments, and social media conduct. We touch on Shola’s testimony before Congress, the impact of the LA fires, and the nuances of maintaining civility amidst disagreements. Shola also delves into the concept of intellectual humility, the dangers of radicalization, and shares personal anecdotes that highlight the power of kindness and understanding in transforming lives. Don’t miss this profound conversation on how civility can change the world.

Website: Sholarichards.com | Civil Unity (Book): https://a.co/d/3RrtMXo

Podcast Transcript

[00:00:00] Introduction and Welcome

[00:00:00] Shola Richards. Good to see you.

[00:00:04] Shola Richards: Pleasure’s all mine, Evan. Thanks for having me, man.

[00:00:07] Evan Meyer: You are an amazing guy. You’ve written an amazing book. I have it right here.

[00:00:14] Shola Richards: Let’s go.

[00:00:15] Discussing the Book ‘Civil Unity’

[00:00:15] Evan Meyer: Civil unity. An incredible book. I think it’s relevant to life. I think it’s relevant to relationships. To how we speak to one another and how we get along. You do tons of these workshops for for fortune.

[00:00:31] Evan Meyer: 50 companies and for workplace civility. You’ve been at the Congress testifying around civility. You are just a fascinating and wonderful spirit here on this planet and, making the world a better place through all of your work and your voice. So There’s some heat in LA right now.

[00:00:51] Evan Meyer: And I mean, I mean that as a double entendre the fires are obviously a catastrophe. How have you experienced this conversation around civility or how people are, are maintaining or handling civility around this very traumatic incident for many.

[00:01:11] Shola Richards: So interesting. Yeah. So at the time, first of all, thanks for having me and thanks for bringing up the Congress thing. Cause clearly they, I killed it with Congress. They’re so civil now.

[00:01:19] Evan Meyer: Yeah.

[00:01:22] Shola Richards: you know, at the time of this recording, we’re like a week into this horrific firestorm. And first of all, before off camera, we were talking about like, Are you safe, Evan?

[00:01:32] Shola Richards: You can show us.

[00:01:33] Survivor’s Guilt and Helpers

[00:01:33] Shola Richards: So we had to make sure that we were both in a good place, I’m this because thankfully my wife and daughters and myself are safe. So that’s good. But of things that I do feel, I feel a little bit of. of survivors guilt in a sense, because I am safe and I’m seeing friends and family lose homes.

[00:01:53] Shola Richards: And been really, really tough to wash. I’m also experiencing this. You know, there’s an old saying, Rogers. I don’t know if you remember him, but he’s that when bad things happen, look to the helpers. So I’m watching these first responders doing such amazing work and so grateful for them. I also feel like in a sense, we also have to keep an eye out on the jerks too during this time, right?

[00:02:15] Shola Richards: The ones who are like price gouging and doing weird things when folks are looking for homes, which is really, really sad.

[00:02:22] Uncivil Narratives on Social Media

[00:02:22] Shola Richards: but also what I’ve noticed and we’re kind of both shared a little bit off camera, kind of our disdain for, for social media, but I I’m on it often for work and I’m noticed there’s a lot of, really sad, uncivil narratives that are going around about our city.

[00:02:41] Shola Richards: It’s like, well, rich people losing their homes and this, that, and the other boohoo, who cares? And it’s like, my God, these are not just. The ultra wealthy, the people have this weird idea around LA, but these are school teachers and these are bus drivers and these are military. There are law enforcement. These are folks who run and YMCA’s and places that we gather as community folks who. Are just like any other community in this country. So joy in the pain of the city, because you have a weird idea about what the city is like. And most probably people haven’t even visited it. They’re making those assumptions is upsetting.

[00:03:23] Shola Richards: So I’m experiencing one, the positive of seeing people really leaning into help, but it’s also the sadness that people are using. This is an opportunity to kind of kick dirt on our city. And we’re really in a tough place.

[00:03:36] Evan Meyer: Yeah. And even, and even on top of that, the looting and exploiting the situation at that level. Right. When, when there’s evacuations, it’s it, it, it, it feels like at any time there’s a, there’s, there’s an intimidation. When something goes wrong, you know, we start running through those biases that you mentioned, right?

[00:03:55] Cognitive Biases and Confirmation Bias

[00:03:55] Evan Meyer: The cognitive biases a lot of the work of Daniel Kahneman which has been, like, one of the most influential books for me as well it makes, you change how you think about information you receive, right? And it’s like, the second you hear anything, or people hear anything, the first thing is to, like, categorize.

[00:04:13] Evan Meyer: And we go, those people. Okay, those rich people. And then let’s make stories about how we feel about rich people. Right? Or even on the other side, right?

[00:04:21] Shola Richards: sure.

[00:04:22] Evan Meyer: right, around the mismanagement conversation, right? There’s a conversation around that. And surely there are tons of tons of ways that this could have been dealt with, like, a lot better.

[00:04:33] Shola Richards: Sure.

[00:04:34] Evan Meyer: it doesn’t mean that everyone is automatically evil, either.

[00:04:38] Shola Richards: That’s the whole point.

[00:04:40] Evan Meyer: Right. Yeah.

[00:04:42] Shola Richards: gone to this weird place where we’ve lost the ability to think with nuance and that’s super frustrating. It’s like you’re either a good person or you’re a bad person. You’re either normal or you’re hell bound. It’s like all these different things that I feel is like, well, maybe more than one thought can exist at once.

[00:05:00] Shola Richards: And when I mean, God knows, you know, you know, the conflict, we’re getting really deep already, like

[00:05:07] Evan Meyer: Yeah. Right into it.

[00:05:09] Shola Richards: you know, a lot of folks really struggle to process the conflict in the Middle East, and it’s so nuanced and so challenging that it’s not always just like. people are evil.

[00:05:18] Shola Richards: These people are not. And it’s like, no, it’s not. Maybe we have to have a different conversation where there’s multiple things at play, but it doesn’t matter if we’re talking about the conflict in the Middle East, things in our country, things in our workplaces, things within our families, ability to think more robustly of just the hair trigger lizard brain stuff that you see so commonly in our discourse. is how we get to change the world. But just want to get one person a day, just onto a place of like going a little bit deeper than just their really quick, reflexive thought around how they feel about a situation or a person.

[00:05:54] Evan Meyer: Yeah. Well, and this, you know, there’s a number of biases that immediately, you know, how a lot of this confirmation bias, right, of how quickly they put their, their story together and how they just immediately make themselves right. You know, with like, oh, see, I knew it. Well, this guy was like this forever, and she was like this forever.

[00:06:18] Evan Meyer: It’s so much as, yeah. Right.

[00:06:22] Shola Richards: I mean, like if you believe something for a really, really, really, really, really long time, right. Confirmation bias. Let’s just go with that one. It’s like, you want to just believe that it’s true. So you’re going to do whatever we can to support that.

[00:06:33] Shola Richards: We’re going to like find as much information, go to whatever cable news stations, find whatever articles or follows on social that support what we believe, the last thing you want to believe is like, I’ve been wrong about this all this time. I don’t want to believe that. My whole life has been a lie.

[00:06:50] Shola Richards: I mean, we know it’s not true, but that’s how people feel around this idea. I mean, check people’s search for validation more than they search for information. So my

[00:06:59] Evan Meyer: Right.

[00:07:00] The Importance of Intellectual Humility

[00:07:00] Shola Richards: me to be more of an information seeker versus a validation seeker. And the question that he introduced to me that I shared in the book is kind of this whole idea around. How do you know that? And really having to go deeper and think about, cause I mean, I do have opinions and when I know that when I put it up against the rigor of how do you know that if like, well, because that’s what I feel, okay, well then I was

[00:07:23] Evan Meyer: Yep.

[00:07:23] Shola Richards: show will I do better. Right.

[00:07:24] Evan Meyer: Yep.

[00:07:25] Shola Richards: and I, I had to like, I had to kind of live with this because yeah, I have opinions, but I also know that my opinions may not be right. And I think that’s also kind of an interesting way of looking at the

[00:07:34] Evan Meyer: Yep. Well, there’s another one you do too in the book, which is, what do you mean by that?

[00:07:38] Shola Richards: Oh, yeah,

[00:07:39] Evan Meyer: Right? How do you know that, and what do you mean by that? And essentially what I’ve noticed that you’ve done is, instead of reacting, You’re clarifying and letting people figure out for themselves and see if they can unravel that without going deeper.

[00:07:54] Evan Meyer: And if they really go deeper than they may have some issues, but if they can unravel, maybe they have just a little bit issues and they’re working through and they know that they didn’t mean that, but they said it the wrong way. Right.

[00:08:04] Personal Anecdotes on Bias

[00:08:04] Evan Meyer: And that situation, I remember you were in the cab in the Uber and yeah, it was and, and he said something.

[00:08:12] Evan Meyer: Racially annoying, I guess,

[00:08:15] Shola Richards: basically said, like, you know, God, I wish more black people were polite like you

[00:08:21] Evan Meyer: right?

[00:08:22] Shola Richards: it was like, first of all, it’s a wild take, right? Because there’s impolite and polite people of all races. Right. So like the idea is he had a judgment that black people were impolite. And the whole idea around these biases, usually they dissolve when we increase the proximity, when we get closer to people, it’s the space between ourselves. That make these biases live. So if I don’t have any black friends, only time I see black people are on my, my cable news station of choice and watching a football game, then I’m going to have assumptions. If I don’t have friends who I talk to or work with our real conversations with, that’s like, Oh, whoa.

[00:09:00] Shola Richards: So I might’ve been one of the first black people he’s seen in a hot minute and seeing like, Hey, you know, I’m pleased. Thank you. This, that, and the other, whoa, what’s going on here. It’s like my buddy who. It’s also black. We have this joke. It’s like when we run into some folks that are like this, it’s like the talking dog phenomenon.

[00:09:17] Shola Richards: They’re like, what? A talking dog? Oh my God. It’s like, it’s, it’s ridiculous because it’s like, it’s like, it’s so sad. But like, you gotta laugh to keep from crying. It’s like this whole idea of like, what? You can speak in multisyllabic words and say things that are like, obviously, but like, dude, if you don’t have any people of color in your life, statistically speaking, 40 percent of white Americans do not have one friend of color, right?

[00:09:45] Shola Richards: That’s wild stat 40%.

[00:09:47] Evan Meyer: Yeah.

[00:09:47] Shola Richards: So the idea is, so what I hope to do is to help folks to like, Get outside the comfort zone, meet people who are different than from you. So you can really start to dissolve those biases in a way in real time that you can start realizing, Oh my God, this is wild. They even thought these things about these people in the first place.

[00:10:02] Evan Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. It’s well, and, and, and, and just, you know, I, I don’t think it’s even just black or someone who looks different than you, but the idea that enforces our echo chambers essentially is our social The people that we spend the most time with, and if they all think exactly like you, right? Then, you really, it’s sort of like not tra deciding not to travel,

[00:10:27] Shola Richards: That’s a good,

[00:10:27] Evan Meyer: right?

[00:10:28] Shola Richards: Yeah.

[00:10:29] Evan Meyer: You’re like, yeah, I think I won’t go anywhere and just live in my city forever and think that everyone does everything the way that people in L. A. do,

[00:10:35] Shola Richards: Oh, there’s so much there. Evan, I.

[00:10:38] Evan Meyer: Heh, heh, heh.

[00:10:40] Shola Richards: a perfect example of this cause we both live in LA. I had an event in Oklahoma city, speaking of that, and I’m traveling to about, say like, Hey, where are you going? She’ll like, I’m going to Oklahoma city. Like, Oh, gross. Those people have running water, those hillbillies, basically, you know, they’re all probably into incest or whatever.

[00:10:57] Shola Richards: It’s like, well, okay. So then I get to Oklahoma city and. And the Uber driver’s like, where are you from? L. A. God, you must, must suck having to dodge gunfire as you take your kids to school every single day. So it’s like, it’s like, both of these two, the L. A. person and the Oklahoma City Uber driver, were just using their limited experience.

[00:11:18] Shola Richards: I asked them both. Have you ever been to Oklahoma City before? No. Have you ever been to Los Angeles before? No. So they’re making these judgments based on very limited experience, anecdotal fallacy. And here we are. And so it’s like helping people to realize that using limited pieces of information to make these sweeping judgments is really a bad faith way to start a conversation.

[00:11:40] The Pie of Knowledge

[00:11:40] Evan Meyer: It’s, it’s a, it’s like the pie of knowledge and that limited information I think applies to most of the things that we have to experience. Like the pie of knowledge that any one person has at any given time about any situation, historical, not historical, current, not a current is so small. It’s such a small piece of, of, of the pie of what can change.

[00:12:06] Evan Meyer: There’s so much that could change how you feel about that. Whatever you believe. If one more piece of information was provided to you that you didn’t know before, like, did you know that all the people in this country, because of, of whatever you think, you thought it was a good thing. And all those people now had to leave their country.

[00:12:23] Evan Meyer: And it’s like, you didn’t know that. Did you, that some small country had to like change no longer exists because of that. You just thought it was all. Whatever the headline of the policy that you read, thought you were rah rah ing about, right. And we, we forget to have the. The, like you said, like we’re too, there’s no intellectual humility and people are just so staunch in their beliefs about something.

[00:12:47] Evan Meyer: Like, I don’t know why you have to be so staunch in your beliefs about it. You know?

[00:12:51] Shola Richards: But you made a really good point though. And I want to unpack this a little bit, what you just said. So the pie of knowledge, but I really liked that term. I’m gonna have to steal that from you is, is, is super limited. Yeah. So we don’t have a ton, we don’t have all knowledge of all things. So when you’re talking to someone who feels like a know it all, look, I have teenagers, so I’m in know it all hell right now with my two daughters, you know, besides going a step beyond how do you know that, which is a great start, you can go even deeper and just be like, okay, so. If I were to present you with additional information, would you be open to possibly changing your mind about your view? I mean, and it’s interesting to be like, no, my mind’s made up. You can’t tell me, you can’t tell me nothing. And I was like, all right, well then you already know what you’re getting yourself into.

[00:13:40] Shola Richards: So I like to challenge people like, Hey, listen, I, there’s so much, there’s a, I hear what you’re saying about this. This is, thank you for sharing. I see this differently. Are you open to hearing how I view this situation? Nope. Nope. Don’t give a damn. Okay, then that’s a D. N. E. Do not engage. I feel

[00:13:58] Evan Meyer: Yeah. Right.

[00:13:59] Engaging in Civil Discourse

[00:13:59] Shola Richards: the only way that we, the only way that we can end unproductive conflict is to reduce our time participating in it.

[00:14:08] Shola Richards: And I feel like what we do is like, no, let me go ahead and fight. You have this, this, you know, spinning match that everyone loses. And I’m, I’m About this idea. And whether this is scientifically sound or not, who cares? But in my head, this makes sense. There are 20 people on 20 percent of people who are locked into one ideology, 20 percent and another side, which leaves like 60 percent the squishy middle that’s open to possibly having some dialogue.

[00:14:37] Shola Richards: They may have opinions. That are strong, but they’re also open to like, all right, so if I find someone who’s open to having a conversation and I, I walk away from people ever since I had this book, I’m getting so many different political conversations and other things that are difficult around whether it’s trans athletes in sports or the middle East or abortion or the Southern border. it’s like, we still can walk away. Disagreeing, no minds are changed, but we’re discussing this in a way that’s robust, a way that’s meaningful where people aren’t feeling attacked. We’re not disrespecting people because they view the world differently. And hopefully we walk away thinking about that was an interesting way that she explained that.

[00:15:18] Shola Richards: I never really thought about it that way. I don’t necessarily agree with it, I now can understand why she would come to that conclusion

[00:15:25] Evan Meyer: That’s right.

[00:15:26] Shola Richards: people down, which does nothing, but just further entrench people into their views that you don’t like in the first place.

[00:15:31] Evan Meyer: Yeah. It, it takes, and I don’t know why it takes so much to do. I mean, we can unpack why, why, why we can unpack.

[00:15:42] Shola Richards: podcast episode,

[00:15:43] Evan Meyer: It’s, it sure is, I, and just cause it’s on that train of thought, like what is it’s, it’s the escalated commitments that people don’t want to feel like they were wrong. Maybe they, they got into a heated argument over Thanksgiving and their whole family thinks one way.

[00:15:59] Evan Meyer: And if they were to say, I’m sorry, it would be too, too hard to say I’m sorry. Right. Like how far did you go with this already? I think that’s a huge one.

[00:16:07] Shola Richards: some

[00:16:07] Evan Meyer: Sunk costs. And, and, and from the intellectual’s humility, could I, just swallowing that you could have been wrong about it, or even a little wrong, you didn’t even, it’s not even right or wrong, just a little bit, maybe your one statement went too far, and you didn’t have to yell at them about the one thing, right?

[00:16:26] Evan Meyer: You could have been 60 percent right, but you really screwed up on that couple lines there, you know. Yeah.

[00:16:33] Shola Richards: first of all, so astute and I’m so glad you said that yes to all the things that you just said, if we can unpack this a little bit, since we’re here, why I do feel that there’s something around intellectual humility aspect. And just for folks who may not like, what is, what are we talking about?

[00:16:50] Shola Richards: Intellectual humility. Just the idea that our knowledge around a certain topic is incomplete, in that we could potentially be wrong about what we believe. That’s that humility aspect around this. You know, I think a lot of folks feel that being right, or ceding ground, means that you are now saying that the other person is right.

[00:17:09] Shola Richards: I’m curious, Evan, In your life, do you two part question for you? I know it was your podcast. I’m just curious. Do you have do you know anyone who’s intellectually humble? That’s first. And do you know someone who refuses to apologize or ever admit that the wrong?

[00:17:23] Evan Meyer: I, I, I think, I think both the answer to the latter is a lot more, I know a lot more people than I know who are, are willing to say, I don’t know. I don’t know. I have some information. I’ve read the news, but like, but no one’s in the room where it happens. Like Hamilton, remember that? Like, no, no one’s in the room where it happens.

[00:17:45] Evan Meyer: You weren’t in the room with Netanyahu and the, the, the, you know, military general, like deciding which. to do what action, you just don’t know. So like, you know, that’s always a good one. It’s like, well, that bomb was indiscriminate. And I’m like, what degree of indiscrimination can we decide? Cause no one really knows what the, the, the strategy or the logic was in the room.

[00:18:10] Evan Meyer: It’s only what you see on the news. Maybe they weren’t, maybe they weren’t, I don’t know. But when I hear things like that, almost like people, people will. Just claim knowledge over things that they’re just, do you think anyone’s telling you that information they don’t in those press, like, but when they have a meeting, when, when, when, when Trump and Putin meet, they’re going to have a conversation and they’re only going to tell you what What each of them wants you to hear.

[00:18:37] Evan Meyer: And then that gets spun, then that gets spun out. You’re already two chain links. That gets spun out in the stories and all that. So it’s like, why wouldn’t you just assume you don’t have all the information because you weren’t there. Mmm.

[00:18:51] Shola Richards: Yes. To all that. But I also feel like folks just, we’re in a place now where it’s like being right. And owning the other side is way more fun and scratches that itch than the idea of just being like, yeah, you know, there’s probably some things I don’t know that, that unless you are for me, Shola Richard speaking, not anyone else. For me, I feel like. Yeah. The highest form of intelligence is curiosity. The idea of like, there’s, gosh, this is what I feel, but like, man, I’m open to learning more around this and being open to information and learning more. But I, but if you’re not into that, that doesn’t really scratch the itch. Right. It was like, I, I don’t like these people, whoever these people are just making this up. And so I get a perverse sense of joy when they’re harmed. Me not knowing that that feeling is justified would be really something that would cause me a lot of pain. So I need to feel that I’m righteous in my anger. I need to feel

[00:19:58] Evan Meyer: Right.

[00:19:59] Shola Richards: righteous in my hatred because if I wasn’t, that I’m a bad person

[00:20:01] Evan Meyer: Yeah, you’re justifying. Yeah, right.

[00:20:03] Shola Richards: people,

[00:20:04] Evan Meyer: Wow. Yeah.

[00:20:05] Shola Richards: that’s the whole idea behind this. And that’s why intellectual humility and it’s sister or big sister critical thinking is so important. It’s like this idea of just like going deeper than headlines and social media posts and loud folks and podcasts and all these types of things. And just like being well read or going deeper.

[00:20:28] Shola Richards: I mean, listen, I know what I got into when I wrote this book, that this is the path less traveled. It’s not

[00:20:34] Evan Meyer: Right.

[00:20:35] Shola Richards: yeah, let me go ahead and be really thoughtful around this. I know that,

[00:20:39] Evan Meyer: It’s definitely the path less traveled.

[00:20:41] Shola Richards: 10 to 15 percent of people to at least consider it, then I

[00:20:45] Evan Meyer: Yeah.

[00:20:45] Shola Richards: that it kind of possibly change the world in some way.

[00:20:47] Evan Meyer: What’s the number? 11 million, 3. 5 percent needs to,

[00:20:50] Shola Richards: million. Yeah, man, that’s it. And first of all, can we just take a minute to just, to just give you some, some props publicly on your podcast. I mean, I, it’s really, really, really nice to talk to someone has. Actively read the work in it. And I want to give you credit for that. You, you might be like, dude, that’s table stakes.

[00:21:10] Shola Richards: I run a podcast. Well, I’ve been on a ton and they don’t, not always the case. So I don’t want to just be like, dude, I expect this. I don’t. So grateful for you taking the time to read it and just being up to speed on it because it creates a more robust conversation. 3. 5 percent is really the idea and that’s not a big, a huge number, but it kind of is when you think about how big our country is in the

[00:21:33] Evan Meyer: yeah. How big, what does it take to have movement? There’s a book called How Change Happens.

[00:21:38] Shola Richards: I’ve heard that I’ve never, I’ve not read it.

[00:21:40] Evan Meyer: yeah Leslie Crutchfield.

[00:21:42] Shola Richards: Oh, okay.

[00:21:44] Evan Meyer: I think I got it. I’ve interviewed her, actually.

[00:21:46] Shola Richards: Did she

[00:21:46] Evan Meyer: yeah.

[00:21:47] Shola Richards: I mean, cause I’m, I’m

[00:21:48] Shola Richards: When it comes to like this change stuff. So any

[00:21:51] Evan Meyer: She does an incredible job. She, like, leads the entrepreneur program. Business department at Duke

[00:22:00] Shola Richards: Oh,

[00:22:01] Evan Meyer: for their policy, yeah, she’s, she’s really, and she wrote this wonderful book and did great research, and just like, the way that movements happen, and the way that they have, the ones that have been successful and the ones that haven’t, why the NRA is so successful, but also how gay rights.

[00:22:24] Evan Meyer: Became so successful, right? Or not smoking, right? Like certain things that were like not the norm and became the norm on both sides of the eye, it’s irrelevant, the issue, but more about what what made that successful. And a lot of it comes down to starting local. The, like the, the bottom up kind of approach of like having all of these little pockets and developing all these chapters locally, winning locally, getting it done at the state level and then getting it done at the national level.

[00:23:02] Evan Meyer: Right. Because the, everyone starts to like all the cities start voting. Okay. Then the States vote and then you get one state and then the dominoes, it’s kind of the domino theory. And I’m wondering if we could do that with civility, like what’s the domino, the domino effect. Of civility to get to 11 million people where we can say, look, we’re not doing this at Thanksgiving anymore.

[00:23:26] Evan Meyer: That joke about Thanksgiving dinner is done. We’re done with that joke. We don’t even say that joke because it’s not funny and it’s, it’s not fun either.

[00:23:33] Shola Richards: Right.

[00:23:34] Evan Meyer: to make Thanksgiving fun all the time.

[00:23:37] Shola Richards: But we’re kind of kidding, but we’re not though. Cause I think what you’re

[00:23:41] Evan Meyer: Right,

[00:23:41] Shola Richards: the idea. I mean, it’s like, If there is a guy or if aunt Jane finds it funny to make horrific, like anti Semitic or homophobic or racist jokes at, at, at Thanksgiving, but we’re like, Hey, well, it says on Jane being on Jane, you know, she’s into her third glass of Rose.

[00:24:02] Shola Richards: Hey, what do you expect? Then it’s like, are now contributing to the problem that we’re trying to fix. Right. So I do feel like part of that, getting to that point, I think was, I don’t know how relevant this is to the conversation, but it just kind of hit me, there was a conversation around change and like around voting in elections.

[00:24:20] Shola Richards: Right. And so one of the things is there was a campaign that said, please vote or something like that. And it didn’t really work, but I was like, Be a voter where now you’re like identified as a voter that got people more interested, like saying like, don’t litter don’t be a litter bug. Like, I don’t want to be a litter,

[00:24:39] Evan Meyer: right.

[00:24:40] Shola Richards: litter, like, ah, whatever I take my Coke and throw it out the window, but I don’t

[00:24:42] Evan Meyer: Oh yeah.

[00:24:43] Shola Richards: bug.

[00:24:43] Shola Richards: So when it comes to civility, I’m still trying to think about how this works in terms of identifying. Who we are as people who believe in this stuff, because what I do want people to realize, and this is shocking for some people, sadly, this idea that you can disagree without disrespect. You’re like, wait, what?

[00:25:00] Shola Richards: That’s a thing. You can actually do that. I was like,

[00:25:03] Evan Meyer: You mean they’re not all idiots. All the other people aren’t idiots.

[00:25:07] Shola Richards: shocking. Right.

[00:25:08] Evan Meyer: Yeah,

[00:25:08] Shola Richards: like, but I think that’s, that’s the first step. Like it’s all baby steps. Right. I feel like using Congress as an example, when I went to Congress and talk to them around civility, I was joking at the top of the podcast.

[00:25:22] Shola Richards: Thanks for sharing your failure. It actually wasn’t, it was so great that, that, that visit to Congress. Yes. I was with the Select Committee for the Modernization of Congress, and it’s now defunct, unfortunately, but there were 12 people there 12 lawmakers, 6 Republicans, 6 Democrats, and at the time the House of Representatives was run by the Democrats, and they made a decision, we’re going to make this purely bipartisan.

[00:25:46] Shola Richards: They could have one person more, make it 7 and 6, but decided to make it 6 and 6. The 12 people in this committee hearing, I can tell you, And it sucks because it doesn’t make national news. These folks on both sides of the aisle are like, this frigging place is a dumpster fire. I see it. Everyone sees it. We may not be ideologically aligned, the 12 of us. However, we all agree that this place is a dumpster fire and we just need to get back to the, the, the way of legislating instead of like getting these 10 second sound bites to own the other side on Twitter or whatever. And I left there was so much hope. And I was like, Oh my gosh, these folks, sure. We see the loud mouth that are on cable news stations, pontificating and putting their chest out and all that type of fun stuff. The reality is the majority of the lawmakers are the ones who are really working there for their constituents. And they don’t get the air tanks.

[00:26:40] Shola Richards: They’re not that they’re yelling,

[00:26:41] Evan Meyer: that’s right.

[00:26:42] Shola Richards: celebrity, but people like us. know that because we don’t see these people because they’re too busy working for their constituents. That’s the whole idea.

[00:26:50] Evan Meyer: Right.

[00:26:51] Shola Richards: getting back to your original question. Why I share this is how we can start is having these conversations where people can see that there’s more to the story than just the soundbites that we see on social media.

[00:27:01] Shola Richards: We just got to go a little bit deeper.

[00:27:03] Evan Meyer: Yeah.

[00:27:04] The Role of Local Politics

[00:27:04] Evan Meyer: It’s so, it’s, I’m so glad you say that there’s so many people and, and I think it’s easier to say this for people who, who run locally or who are part of local politics. The purity of their intentions is, is there’s more purity for intentions for more people at the local level until people start getting corrupted.

[00:27:21] Evan Meyer: Right. And, and, but I think you’re a hundred percent right. There’s plenty of good people out there and that’s originally what I was even doing this podcast for was to showcase the humanity for the good public service. Right? It was like, like people who really care and really want to make a difference, don’t necessarily want to, necessarily want to be career politicians, don’t necessarily get involved in that stuff.

[00:27:42] Evan Meyer: We’re just trying, and I started this in Santa Monica, just for Santa Monica,

[00:27:45] Shola Richards: Okay.

[00:27:46] Evan Meyer: to try to bring civility to what was, what was happening. difficult to watch council meetings very long and, and painful and a lot of anger and then yelling and ad hominem attacks at the council members. And I’m like, look, and I remember when I was running and I was president of my neighborhood association, even there would be people who would come in and yell at the council members that would come and that I’d have come and speak to the neighborhood.

[00:28:12] Evan Meyer: And I’d be like, look, I don’t care if you agree with them or not, but this room is not a place for that. Like you, we, we are not accepting yelling at people who are out there serving whether you like them or not. And I sort of have this little bit of a hump, this respect for anyone who’s willing to go put their life under a microscope is, is there some level of respect, even if I don’t like your politics, like, because they’re the ones doing it.

[00:28:37] Shola Richards: How did he respond to that? I’m super curious when, so they’re coming to these meetings they’re screaming and attacking these folks who decided to come in and you’re saying, Hey, We’re not doing that here. This is not going to happen here. We’re going to engage respectfully and with civility, be passionate if you choose, but we’re not going to use this as a devolving into attacks. How has that received? I’m always curious about like the real world application of like, when you’re seeing folks that are feeling the need to stream and yell at someone, and then you’re trying to pull them back into a place where they’re back into using their prefrontal cortex, their

[00:29:14] Evan Meyer: Right.

[00:29:15] Shola Richards: How did that work out?

[00:29:17] Evan Meyer: Well, it’s hard to remember each situation of how I responded, but in general, what you try to do is be very respectful to all the parties at the same time, saying, look, you know, we’re not going to get anywhere. If you’re putting this person in a very difficult place mentally and emotionally, when you yell at someone in public, there’s a lot of things that are happening.

[00:29:38] Evan Meyer: You’re in public, you’re being publicly shamed. So you have to either ignore that. Somehow, turn that off entirely, and act as if it, yeah, like, there, there’s, there are people too, and when they’re up there, they, they have an emotional response. Ideally, it’s not a lot, and they’re able to, to quell a lot of that, but, like, it, it happens.

[00:29:57] Evan Meyer: So you want to be respectful that that could be happening on one, on, on that side. Again, we’re not even talking about what the conversation is. It doesn’t even matter.

[00:30:04] Shola Richards: Yeah,

[00:30:05] Evan Meyer: just about being able to have the discourse. So it’s like, so if you’re going to come in and yell at them and put them in a position, they came here to be here tonight to talk to you civilly, they’re speaking civilly, you’re not speaking civilly at the moment.

[00:30:18] Evan Meyer: And we need to just, if you’d like to take a breath and come back when you’re ready to, to, to, to have a conversation that is not at this level, it has, you have to reduce the, the, the, the, the heat in the room. Right. And, and I don’t remember exactly how I handle that, but that was the general sentiment is like, how do I do this respectfully?

[00:30:39] Evan Meyer: And this person doesn’t feel like I’m attacking them for their beliefs.

[00:30:43] Shola Richards: See, this is the reason why I was asking and thanks for sharing. It’s like, just scientifically. I mean, I get it. I mean, we’re sitting here having a calm conversation. It’s one thing. We’re in the heat of the moment, right? But scientifically screaming and shouting someone down never works. I mean, that’s not shocking, right?

[00:31:00] Evan Meyer: Right.

[00:31:01] Shola Richards: car, the research on the reactants theory from 1966, the guy Jack Graham, who talked about this, that in the book, I described it as the boomerang, the

[00:31:10] Evan Meyer: Boomerang effect. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s right.

[00:31:12] Shola Richards: So it’s like if you were to, if, if I If I have a strong view about something and I am coming at someone who is diametrically opposed in terms of their belief on the same idea, and I choose to attack them for it, I call them stupid or or racist or Or a Nazi or you’re some liberal snowflake or,

[00:31:38] Evan Meyer: Fascist.

[00:31:39] Shola Richards: fascism, whatever the word, I mean, both sides have their words, right?

[00:31:42] Shola Richards: So it’s like, whatever it may be, it’s not like I made a joke in the book. It’s like around like gun control. If I said, God, you know, your guns stupid. I can’t believe you have guns. You’re an idiot. You know, like, you know, stop using your guns as your way to overcompensate for your inability to please your wife.

[00:31:58] Shola Richards: It’s like, Oh, you know what? You’re right. Yeah. you for your commentary. I’m so grateful that you told my using my guns to self soothe for my bedroom failures. Like no one’s doing that. Right. So.

[00:32:11] Emotional Intelligence and Inner Work

[00:32:11] Shola Richards: Instead of like using, I mean, listen, both sides use attacks, but I know that one thing that is so true in science is that if you’re able to wrap your mind around a level of emotional intelligence, and that’s why I made sure I developed the chapter on making sure we do. Inner work. So we’re prepared to not get hijacked consistently when you see people that think differently, cause we’re going to share the world with people who don’t see it the way we do. There’s

[00:32:37] Evan Meyer: Right.

[00:32:37] Shola Richards: that. Unless you choose to like live in a cave for the rest of your life. I’m not choosing to do that. So we’ve got to figure out how to navigate this stuff. And part of it is if you choose to attack, come in hot with attacks, three things are going to happen. One, going to become more entrenched in the beliefs. That you hate the merits of your position are gone. They’re not going to see it. And three, you’re contributing to the discourse that we all hate, lose, lose, unless you’re cool with that, which I don’t know why you would be.

[00:33:05] The Power of Civil Discourse

[00:33:05] Shola Richards: So it’s like finding a way to be like, Hey, you know, I’m glad you came to this meeting. I really, really disagree with some of the policies that you put forth. And if you. I would like to share why and how this would affect me and my family going forward and why I would hope you’d reconsider more chance that they’ll maybe they’ll walk away like screw you lady or whatever.

[00:33:26] Shola Richards: But at least you have a chance to like, made a good point. He made a good point. And you’re never going to get that by screaming people down. Unless you just want to satiate that need to own the other side, that really basic level of our humanity.

[00:33:38] Evan Meyer: Yeah. Right.

[00:33:40] Shola Richards: We got to do better. And I

[00:33:41] Evan Meyer: We got to do better.

[00:33:42] Shola Richards: that’s what I’m trying to push people to kind of towards this.

[00:33:43] Shola Richards: Like there’s a better way y’all give it a

[00:33:45] Evan Meyer: Yep. Yeah. And, and, and you, you actually bring up a good thing in your book too.

[00:33:50] Navigating Hard Lines in Civility

[00:33:50] Evan Meyer: It’s like, where, what are those cases that feel impossible to be civil? Right. Have you experienced, where are those hard lines for you? Do you find, and I’m sure you’ve, you’ve even mentioned how you’ve been challenged personally in the book through some of this.

[00:34:11] Evan Meyer: Do you have hard lines where you’re like, you know, you do this. Yeah. There’s no civility, right?

[00:34:17] Shola Richards: Yeah. Yeah. That’s fair. Like, you know, I, I’m so glad we’re talking about this because one of the, and I will absolutely answer your question, but a quick preface is of the biggest misconceptions around civility is like, Oh, when people are being abusive, just smile and be like, I’m sending you love. I love you.

[00:34:38] Shola Richards: Like, screw that. So like, if someone came to my, if someone like came and like, was attacking my family or something like, sir, do you mind

[00:34:46] Evan Meyer: Yeah, right

[00:34:48] Shola Richards: just take a minute to reflect on your behavior, like, screw that he’s getting these hands and I’m not like, even that’s, that’s, I just need people to understand, like there’s time for civility.

[00:34:58] Shola Richards: I would say probably 80 percent of the situations in our world, is a civil answer for it. God, he said it. God, I hope I’m not jacking up his quote, but he said, you know, violence is rarely the answer, when violence is the answer, it is the only answer. I’m like jacking up his quote, but like, basically he’s saying like, usually it’s not the answer, but when it is, it is the only answer.

[00:35:24] Shola Richards: And there’s times where for me, I shared in the book that I was sexually abused when I was younger. And yeah, man, I’m, I’m not trying to, like, if I were to ever run into these people, I couldn’t even pick it on the lineup. I’m not trying to give civility to them. Now, what’s interesting about this, and this is going to be kind of confusing, but stick with me on this. I have forgiven them, but I have no interest in spending any time offering them kindness or civility. Forgiveness, this means that I’ve released them, and I’ve forgiven them. I am no longer letting these fools live right through my mind and I’m free from that. it doesn’t mean that if I ever ran into them and I wouldn’t even know them if I saw them, we’re going to hug it out and just be like, yo, I forgive you for what you did to me.

[00:36:13] Shola Richards: No, I forgave you, but I don’t need to give you that kindness. I don’t need to, I’m not doing it for them. That’s the

[00:36:19] Evan Meyer: Right,

[00:36:20] Shola Richards: doing this for me.

[00:36:21] Evan Meyer: right,

[00:36:21] Shola Richards: that’s a hard line and that’s an extreme line to be clear. So I get it. Another example is like. When I’m dealing with someone who is clearly racist and does not see my humanity and is happy to let me know that I will never be equal to them, I’m not going to be like, Hey, well, you know, I still love you. I’m like, no, I’m not going to engage in back and forth with them. Cause I don’t

[00:36:44] Evan Meyer: right.

[00:36:45] Shola Richards: my time and my emotional energy, but they’re not going to get civility either. I’m just going to leave. I’m just going to bounce. I’m just going to move on. There’s a quote that I had in the book. That said honeybees don’t waste a moment of their time trying to convince house flies that honey tastes better than shit. And I think about this all the time.

[00:37:02] Evan Meyer: I took that note by the way

[00:37:04] Shola Richards: that’s a solid one, right? I mean, so like, if you’re, if you are into like, like swirling around the stinky pile in the grass, like have at it, my guy, but like, I’m trying to find this honey and I’m trying to, it’s so much sweeter being kinder to people being, even with people that you don’t. Understand or see the world the same way. So my hard line is if someone’s like truly hateful and thankfully there’s not a ton of these people percentage wise, but truly, truly hateful, I got no time for you and I’m not going to be wasting my time giving you civility when I can talk to this big meaty portion, the 70, 60, 70 percent of folks out there who are open to being self aware around how their words and actions affect others.

[00:37:44] Shola Richards: So yeah, I have a few red

[00:37:45] Evan Meyer: Yeah, well you don’t and 11 million people

[00:37:49] Shola Richards: Exactly. And so,

[00:37:50] Evan Meyer: so 60 percent is within that

[00:37:52] Shola Richards: 5 percent that we can just like, whatever.

[00:37:54] Evan Meyer: That’s right. There’s plenty, there’s plenty in that 60 percent you were talking about. That’s, that’s, that’s that we can, we can figure out how to change.

[00:38:01] Social Media and Civility

[00:38:01] Evan Meyer: So, there’s been a couple interesting movements on this front, that, in speaking of, like, trying to get those people to be more civil.

[00:38:08] Evan Meyer: One is on X, where Musk has, is updating the algorithm to be less, to deprioritize negativity, and prioritize things that are more, inspirational or informative or entertaining. And he uses the community notes to help to validate ideas. And then, right, right after that, Zuckerberg comes out and says that they’re not going to use fact checkers anymore, and, those fact checkers are way too biased, and we’re going to start using community mo notes like Musk in order to have freedom of speech, but also do better you know, clarifying what could be considered misinformation or whatever.

[00:38:48] Evan Meyer: Now, two interesting things on this. One, the idea that part of the idea of X is to reduce negativity, which I thought was a very interesting move from a civility standpoint at least. And then the the other is Zuckerberg’s fact checkers. They’re biased fact checkers, and we were talking before like, I asked this to so many people, like, does anyone even agree on the word fact anymore?

[00:39:10] Evan Meyer: You can’t even agree on the most basic words in the lexicon.

[00:39:14] Shola Richards: That’s the

[00:39:14] Evan Meyer: How do you, right? Like, oh, this is a fact. These are facts. Oh, no, these are facts. No, these are facts. You’re just like.

[00:39:24] Shola Richards: used to be arguable. And I think that’s, what’s so sad when it’s like post truth world, it’s like, like two plus two equals four. No, two plus two equals Tuesday. It’s like, it it’s four. Like, how did we get to Tuesday? Like what

[00:39:36] Evan Meyer: Right. Well, there’s a difference between, I think, and I think this is where it’s part of the intellectual humility problem, but there’s so much that’s coming out now and there’s this need to, you know, all the things we said before, but the truth is very, it’s not clear in general what truth is because it’s complicated, right?

[00:39:56] Evan Meyer: There’s only very, there’s very few absolute truths, right? Then there’s, we’ll call it empirical truths, like scientific, like, Force equals mass times acceleration, right? These are scientific laws, certain formulas that work under all the conditions we’ve ever been able to test. Right? There’s those truths.

[00:40:15] Evan Meyer: And those could still be disrupted. Things get proven wrong over time. That’s what science is all about.

[00:40:19] Shola Richards: Yes.

[00:40:20] Evan Meyer: there’s very, once you add narrative, period, to anything, once you communicate something and play the game of telephone at all, my hypothesis is that You have to then add a level of humility that there was narrative and humans love narrative.

[00:40:37] Evan Meyer: We love good stories. It’s our whole thing. So there’s very few actual real hard truths without understood to get the full pie of knowledge. You just, I think it’s generally impossible. So you have to lead with that intellectual humility. And that’s my, I guess my main point on the narrative front

[00:40:53] Shola Richards: And that’s a fair point. I think what, what gets kind of squishy and questionable is like when bad actors use that as cover to spread blatant misinformation and disinformation, things that they know is untrue and that they’re like, well, you know, we don’t know what facts are. And if you coming from a place of.

[00:41:13] Shola Richards: ill intent to harm or to deceive or to increase whatever value share you have from a political or financial standpoint. That’s when it’s gross and bad, you know, back to your original around what’s going on in X. I’m not on there. So I don’t really know, but I can tell you One of the things that’s really challenging around this is you can deprioritize whatever the hell you want to prioritize. I don’t know how that’s going to change. Like the cesspool of negativity that is social media. Like I don’t, I don’t, I, I feel like, and again, from a place of intellectual humility, I’m sharing my opinion, I can’t say anything factually, but what I can say in my opinion is from doing this for a while, like I’ve tried to carve out my own little pockets of like, goodness on on social media. But I feel like it’s so easy with the cloak of anonymity to do some really, really crazy things that you would never say to a person’s face and have that face to face interaction. So I know how much juice is worth the squeeze and whatever these folks are trying to do on Facebook or X. But what I can say is that from our own individual agency perspective, if we are going to be on social media, we should be like, am I doing harm or am I actually helping making this a little better place?

[00:42:33] Shola Richards: I, you hear this all the time. Like my girls were in Girl Scouts for a while. And like, Leave it better than you found it. Just simple, basic stuff. Like if you’re on there and you’re like, Gur, I can’t wait to go on the comment section of this political site person that I hate. And let’s let them know that all this stuff is stupid. There’s a, there’s a friend of mine, who first thing that this person does when they wake up in the morning is go on X and like troll the other political side. And this spends day doing this. Like I personally cannot think. Of a worse use of

[00:43:11] Evan Meyer: use of time.

[00:43:13] Shola Richards: mean, it’s like, and it’s weird because it does, it doesn’t do any objective.

[00:43:19] Shola Richards: Good. You’re not changing anyone’s minds and you’re getting your cortisol raised up. Your sympathetic nervous system is like flaring out of control. You’re probably losing a couple of minutes or hours off of your life. Every single time you do this for what end. So like. I just try to find like finding a way to get an environment where people can be more thoughtful and kinder and, and, and yes, passionate.

[00:43:45] Shola Richards: I don’t want people like you have to roll over when you believe something. If like, if you believe something, you’re talking to someone who disagrees, it. One of my dear friends has a podcast where her mom What that was is a Trump supporter and a friend was a hardcore Kamala Harris supporter, and they had a beautiful podcast they didn’t tell, they had the rule was that they didn’t share which view kind of gave it away.

[00:44:13] Shola Richards: That sucks anyway. So like share what side of the, of the political aisle they’re on. the podcast interview was so interesting. How they talked about how they can navigate going forward. Cause they both have really staunch views. And. To see how they’re able to be civil, talk about how these conversations have, how one person has kind of made it worse than the other, how we can kind of find a way to navigate around it was one of the things that gave me hope in 2024.

[00:44:39] Shola Richards: And I think about that podcast episode, whenever I run into folks who are having these really difficult conversations around the middle East or transgender athletes in sports or LGBTQ rights in general, or race relations or politics or what have you. is hope that we can get there if we’re able to see the shared humanity across from us.

[00:45:00] Shola Richards: And I think

[00:45:00] Evan Meyer: Yeah.

[00:45:01] Shola Richards: one area that we struggle with collectively.

[00:45:03] Evan Meyer: Yeah, we’ve almost dehumanized the other side,

[00:45:07] Shola Richards: Oh yeah.

[00:45:08] Shola Richards: Way.

[00:45:09] Evan Meyer: it’s not good. Yeah. Yeah. Well, go jump into that. That was a good, that was a good jump into.

[00:45:15] Shola Richards: Yeah. I didn’t say I think it’s intentional because it kind of goes back to my earlier point. You want to feel justified in your righteous anger. Yeah. So if I see you as someone who roots for the same sports teams that I do when our kids go to the same schools and we have the same hopes and fears and like, you know, all these things that help to Tether that person to their humanity.

[00:45:37] Shola Richards: It’s like, screw that. Like, no, you’re a terrible person

[00:45:42] Evan Meyer: Yeah.

[00:45:42] Shola Richards: wants to bring all this crime into this country and blah, blah, blah. And so it’s like, instead of seeing them for the humans that they are, it’s like, It’s so much easier to dehumanize. And this again, both sides do this. And I think part of the challenge is, can you look at someone who doesn’t see the world as you do, but still keep their humanity in the center of the conversation?

[00:46:05] Shola Richards: It’s not, listen, real talk, Evan, if this was easy, everyone would be doing it. We wouldn’t have to have this podcast interview. It wouldn’t even be a point where there would no need for me to spend 19 months writing this thing. What, what is real? This is super hard work. That’s going to require us to go back to your earlier point around. Well, why, why, why would I admit that I’m wrong? I don’t want to do that. It’s feels weird. Then if I’m wrong, that means you’re right. And I’ll never say that you’re right because you’re wrong. So I’m not gonna say that I’m wrong. It’s this, this. Binary false dilemma fallacy back to our logical

[00:46:38] Evan Meyer: Yeah.

[00:46:39] Shola Richards: So there’s more to it, but it requires nuance. And that’s what I’m trying to teach people that there’s a way to get there, but we have to be willing to

[00:46:45] Evan Meyer: Yeah.

[00:46:46] Shola Richards: and our hearts to do it.

[00:46:47] Evan Meyer: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s an amazing relate.

[00:46:52] Radicalization and Substance Abuse

[00:46:52] Evan Meyer: You found similarities between, I mean, just to kind of carry on this, it’s, This point of the why I guess right is that you’ve you’ve found similarities between substance abuse and the radicalization right in the radicalization is 10 percent on both sides, right?

[00:47:10] Evan Meyer: 20 percent of the population or something. I forget, but whatever the rat, the very far the people you can’t convince the ones that are in civil, you know, will never be wrong. What can you can you jump into that a little bit? I think it’s an incredible way to think of. Because a lot of the people that I think that I know that I would consider to be more radicalized tend to have some addictive personality to some degree.

[00:47:37] Evan Meyer: They do something too much in the, in the substance category. I love that.

[00:47:45] Shola Richards: you’re saying, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s. It’s not a one to one comparison, but it’s close enough that we can make this right. So usually folks who are dealing with some sort of substance misuse or abuse, one really well, first things first, in order to take the next step, there has to be some sort of realization that there’s a problem.

[00:48:05] Shola Richards: That’s the first step of any real mainstream change. They’re not going to be very receptive to being shamed. About their behavior. And oftentimes similar to folks who are radicalized, they do find a way to kind of isolate themselves around people who share similar beliefs because it allows them to, or in substance abuse scene activities, right?

[00:48:27] Shola Richards: So you don’t feel the guilt that. That would happen if like you’re, if you’re an alcoholic and you’re drinking at some party, if you’re around other alcoholics, it’s easier to engage in that behavior. If you are radicalized and you find an online group supports your ideology, your ideology, it’s easier to do that.

[00:48:45] Shola Richards: You’re not going to feel as guilty around being around these folks because they help support that. And it’s these environments that are created around that. That allows these behaviors that are maladaptive to thrive because if you are around something, Hey, you should put down the pipe. You should put down the drink. Hey, you know, these beliefs that you have around these people. I don’t know. This is a really good idea. I kind of disagree with you. So, and most importantly, They’re not going to be super open and coming back to point number one, full circle. They’re not going to be really open to changing by you, forcing them into change.

[00:49:22] Shola Richards: So one of the things that we talk around and the same thing with substance abuse, I would argue with civility as well. When folks are radicalized is the willingness. To show this person kindness and respect. Like what respect for what the what it’s not that you have a shred of respect for their behavior or their beliefs. But the idea is this very simple phrase that I talked about in the book. Most bad behavior is an unskilled expression of an unmet need. a need that’s being met, right? Whatever it is, the need to feel seen a need to feel important and you’ll need to feel part of community, whatever the heck it is.

[00:49:57] Shola Richards: Right. so. If you’re able to listen to someone like, yeah, how did you get to this? What makes you believe that, you know, X, Y, and Z is true. Yeah, because they’re all tell me more. And then they’re like, you’re not judging your listening. And just by doing that, you’re giving this person a way to get their needs met. In a way that is not maladaptive, dangerous, possibly even harmful to another human being. God, this is hard. And that’s why most people don’t do it. I’m like, screw you. You’re crazy. And because you’re crazy, I want nothing to do with you. And to be super clear, just because you listen to someone and give them that space, they may end up being dangerous or whatever you need to S communicate them from your life and do that. as a starting point to just dismiss people, especially if it’s something you care about, have a relationship, I think it’s worth going a little bit deeper.

[00:50:47] Evan Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. Are there people, are there people in your life that you would say lean on this? Substance abuse, radicalization, combo.

[00:50:59] Shola Richards: Yeah, I had a friend who really struggled with alcohol abuse and still friends and he’s done so much better. It just got to a point where it wasn’t serving me to be around him. And I found myself, you know, kind of more than they probably should have around. And I was like, I don’t like how I feel.

[00:51:22] Shola Richards: I don’t want to be hung over. I’m not a big drinker. So there’s that. So I, Kind of like listening to his challenges with this. And eventually he got to a point where it’s like, you know what? I don’t know. I, I’m, I don’t like how I, and I said to him, like, well, grab a drink. Like, I don’t like how I feel the next day. That was really all I said. And then it took a while. And then he came back and you know what? I’m going to realization that I don’t like how I feel. And he decided to take himself to rehab and do the work. And. in a much, much better place now. if I shamed him and to be super clear, this was way before I knew anything about the book that I wrote or these techniques, I was just like, but I had an idea, I knew that shaming him wasn’t going to be effective.

[00:52:08] Shola Richards: So I did. And the thing about that, because I gave him that freedom to just, you know, make the decision on his own. He reclaimed his life and now he’s very happy doing what he, what he Does well, I feel like this radicalization, substance abuse issues where folks go so far, ’cause they’re missing something, that a need is not being fulfilled.

[00:52:27] Shola Richards: And if the need isn’t being fulfilled, whatever that need is, they’re gonna find it elsewhere. And maybe in ways that aren’t very helpful or productive.

[00:52:35] Evan Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. I think when I was reading that, you know, I started to have my own, like, relationships to what you were saying in my head of, like, things I was thinking, and people, or why this is such a powerful way of looking at it, even if it’s, even partially true. You know, you could start to look at why, what is it about addictive behavior that makes it?

[00:53:00] Evan Meyer: Something addictive, right? And that can continue will pursuit in a thing to feel a certain way.

[00:53:05] Shola Richards: Yep,

[00:53:06] Evan Meyer: And maybe, I’m not a psychologist, but, but, but I do think that the problem we’re dealing with is largely psychology of the individual. It’s a personal responsibility, psychology, understanding yourself.

[00:53:20] Evan Meyer: So you could be better out there in the real world. And on the substance abuse. the relationship, you know, maybe there’s a psychological element where the, the need to continue to do a certain thing, to feel a certain way over and over again, that substance is fulfilling some of that unmet need. And also it’s the same behavior that they would exhibit in a conversation in something difficult, that continual force to, at any cost.

[00:53:52] Evan Meyer: Pursue a conversation style in order to be right. And, and again, I don’t know if it’s, it’s, it’s causal or correlated, but there’s something there that’s similar, which I found really interesting.

[00:54:02] Shola Richards: is super interesting, but I mean, there’s like, most people do things because there’s a payoff, whatever it may be. Right. So it’s like, there’s something that feels good. Like, it’s like you drink that drink, you do the drug, you scream at someone on social media. There’s something that’s like, yeah, that dopamine hit. So if we’re able to like retrain our dopamine receptors to like things that are more healthy and helpful, we have a way to maybe turn this around. But I think that’s part of the challenge. It requires that first step. Realizing like, Oh, this is not, is not, it’s like using cotton candy for energy.

[00:54:38] Shola Richards: Like how stupid is that? It’s like, that’s not gonna work. So it’s like, it’s like, why not just try something that’s way more sustaining? It’s going to be so much more healthy for you. But it’s like, until they realize like, nah, this cotton candy does work. Every time I do, I get this big boost. Then you crash. So there’s gotta be a better way. And I

[00:54:54] Evan Meyer: Yeah.

[00:54:55] Shola Richards: part of this conversation is to help people to get there.

[00:54:57] Evan Meyer: Yeah. And a lot of people would rather, would rather crash than be wrong.

[00:55:03] Shola Richards: Sadly, that’s true. And I think that says a lot about our, our, our ego based way of looking at the world. It’s like, I personally speaking, I’d rather I’d rather be happy than right. Like have your win. I’m just going to,

[00:55:16] Evan Meyer: Yeah. What’s the point

[00:55:17] Shola Richards: me.

[00:55:17] Evan Meyer: of even, you know, it’s even, it’s happened the other day where someone said you’re wrong in a conversation. And I’m like, it’s just funny that you’d even say that to someone on such a, on such a, like, to be right and wrong on things, I think, you know, maybe that’s one of the first ways of looking at it is like, it’s, there’s no such thing as right and wrong.

[00:55:38] Shola Richards: I just

[00:55:39] Evan Meyer: Most of the time.

[00:55:40] Shola Richards: Yeah. It’s

[00:55:41] Evan Meyer: Yeah.

[00:55:42] Shola Richards: So cool. You see it that way. I see it differently. I mean, I may be wrong. You may be wrong. We both may be right. I don’t know. Who knows, but I just see it differently. So I need to be, you’re wrong.

[00:55:51] Evan Meyer: Yeah.

[00:55:51] Shola Richards: no, I was like, oh, that’s interesting that you think that I, I, I have to see it differently.

[00:55:55] Evan Meyer: Yeah.

[00:55:56] Shola Richards: And that doesn’t need, because if you like, I disagree, you’re wrong. So I was like, Whoa, okay. So now we’re like, there’s already that, like that primal. Ooh, I got to square up. It’s like, we’re about to go into this. Instead, it’s more like I see it differently. It doesn’t

[00:56:10] Evan Meyer: Yep.

[00:56:11] Shola Richards: It doesn’t mean I’m right.

[00:56:12] Shola Richards: It doesn’t mean that you are either, by the way, it just means that I see it differently.

[00:56:16] Evan Meyer: Yeah, that’s okay. So I, hey, we, we got to figure this out.

[00:56:20] Final Thoughts on Kindness

[00:56:20] Evan Meyer: I’m so, I am so grateful that there’s a person like you who is pursuing this at such a at such a passionate level to make the world more civil. And, and in a, in a way that is logical, right? It’s not in a, in a way that’s not, you know, it’s not just Kumbaya soft, mushy stuff.

[00:56:41] Evan Meyer: It’s just, it’s, it’s, it’s really about understanding your own psychology and understanding how you can. Improve the world by improving yourself in a lot of ways. That’s a lot of what I got from your book. Helps relationships.

[00:56:52] Shola Richards: That was what

[00:56:54] Evan Meyer: I think it, I think you did such a good job, man. Thank you for everything.

[00:56:58] Evan Meyer: Thanks for joining today. Any, any last things you want to tell the world?

[00:57:02] Shola Richards: Yeah. Something really simple. Just be a little bit kinder than you feel comfortable being. Just do a little bit more. I know it’s like, if we can just kind of look at that place where we can just Everyone thinks that they’re kind enough, but can we just be a little kinder? Maybe that one person who you just have some sort of issue with, or maybe you haven’t said hello to making eye contact with folks who you don’t really know and give them a little smile or even a hello.

[00:57:28] Shola Richards: If you’re not a big smiler, just go a little bit further. We don’t know what other people are struggling with. And that little bit of connection could give someone a renewed faith and hope in humanity.

[00:57:38] Evan Meyer: That’s it. Shola Richards, the, the one and only, the inspirational, the amazing. If you haven’t read it, please read it. Please read this to the whole, the whole world. Please read this book.

[00:57:52] Shola Richards: We’ll get there, Evan. We’ll get there one day. One day.

[00:57:56] Evan Meyer: Or at least 11 million people. I think, would that be enough? That’d be enough.

[00:58:00] Shola Richards: I wouldn’t be mad.

[00:58:02] Evan Meyer: Ah, thank you so much. It was a pleasure.

[00:58:07] Shola Richards: Appreciate you, brother. Thanks, Evan. Take care, man.

[00:58:11] ​

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